Dear Jeroen,
I assume that gestures have a content and a form. Do you think it is possible to translate only the structure (form) of a gesture, ignoring the meaning (content) of it? Is there a way to translate body language into body language, avoiding it´s message and being consequent with its space-time elements? Would be nice to know your answer.
I love your site!
Greetings, Monica Antezana
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Dear Monica,
Thanks for the compliment and for writing. I am not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by translating body language into body language? Between different cultures?
There have been attempts to analyze and document the form of gestures and sign language, like Labanotation, HamNoSys, SignWriting, and others. They offer a way to capture the form without bothering with the meaning. But it is not a translation as such into other gestures.
Could you please clarify?
Kind regards,
Jeroen Arendsen
ps. Can I have your permission to put this correspondence on the weblog? It might be interesting for other readers too.
Dear Jeroen,
Thank you for the quick reply.
Basically you understood my question. My interest is fully focussed on movement but attempting to avoid cultural context.
In a lecture about dance analysis called "watching and understanding movement", a video specialist stated -an image can only be translated into another image; therefore, movement can only be translated into movement-. The explanation held the fact that a translation should remain in the same type of language, visual, acoustic, etc. That is why I asked you if gestures could be translated into gestures.
I am choreographing a lecture-performance piece that deals with translation. It was so interesting to check your site, because for my project I also have Shakira´s song and researched about the bonobo chimpanzee Kanzi and movements of robots. I would like to interview you in the future.
Kind regards,
Monica Antezana
Hi Monica,
Sorry for the delay, but sometimes I need to chew on some thoughts before I want to express them.
I thought about your proposition quite a bit: translation of gestures (or movement) into other gestures while avoiding their meaning. My first impression is that it is impossible, or rather without merit. It would be a futile exercise, an empty gesture if you will.
I might agree that a proper translation leads, in the end, to output that is in the same type of language as the input. Even though writing these words and emailing them for you to read is proces of countless translations of my thoughts into words, into typing, into asci codes, into bits in the pipeline, etc. But eventually it comes back again as thoughts to you (I hope). Yet I do not know whether a picture translated into words in a description is worse than a translation of it into another picture. Why would the one be better or more valid than the other?
Still, let me accept for a moment that it is true that the type of language should remain the same. Is not the main point of translation that it is a proces where A is translated to B via some common ground C? Usually A is translated into B because they have the same meaning C in the languages of A and B.
What does it mean when a movement is translated into another movement? Via which common ground? Their aesthetics? Should they express the same feelings? Or arouse the same feelings? In which sense are they translated? If they belong to the same semiotic or aesthetic system, within one culture, then there is no translation. There are only two movements that signify or express the same thing. Two synonyms, if you will. And again this synonymy exists only via meaning signified or feeling expressed.
My argumentation ends here, I am afraid. I see no options for a sensible 'translation' of gestures into other gestures using only their form.
Perhaps I am missing something? Perhaps I misunderstood the details of the question?
Please correct me where I may be wrong.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Arendsen
Hallo Jeroen,
Thanks for the reply and specially for thinking further about my question. I am also researching within the context of dance and choreography. Translation in contemporary dance, deals with cultural matters.
With a movement translated into another movement, I mean doing the same motion with different body parts. For example the gesture for "email me" could be moving quickly up and down my fingers with my hands held next to each other in front of my chest. I could also do the same with my toes. I believe that the meaning changes, but the form remains. In this sense movement, besides meaning something is material that can be manipulated and translated. But now I see the difference with movement in general and gesture. The first could be abstract or narrative but the second is always attached to meaning and culture.
Do you know the expression: "traduttore tradittore" -every translation is a betrayel? It strikes me...thus we manage to negotiate with what we mean.
I really appreciate your examples and explanations.
All the best,
Monica Antezana
Dear Jeroen,
Do you offer coaching on your research subjects?
I explain why.
I have a BA in Science of Education and a BA in Choreography (Rotterdamse Dansacademie). At the moment I am doing my MA in Performance Studies (Hamburg University). The city of Hamburg is impulsing dance research projects of new choreographers. One of my dance projects has already been selected and I am applying for another one. I would like to have coaching on semiotics and/or sign language, bacause my aim is to define "translation" throughout
choreography. This coaching could be via emails, or telephone and of course I could go to Delft. If yes, could you please send me your CV and fees, I would have to include this information in my project for the subsidy.
If you have any project or idea in mind linked to education through
movement dance, choreography or performance I would be more than
pleased to collaborate with you!
All the best,
Monica Antezana
Dear Monica,
I would be happy to coach you on these subjects, but I am not currently offering such services for a fee. I do enjoy corresponding about these subjects, which I do for free. If you would like to visit in Delft you are welcome, and I will make time for you.
You can pay me back by answering some of my own questions, perhaps?
One of them is: Is anybody currently using Labanotation in choreography? Are you? Or any other system of movement notation? And if so, then how are gestures (like for example the Mudras that Shakira included in her performance) notated?
Kind regards,
Jeroen Arendsen
Dear Jereoen,
Great! Thank you that is really kind. I would like to visit Delft again.
I know the basics of Labanotation. It is very helpful. I usually film my movement sequences. I´ll investigate which choreographers are using it.
I´ve checked in Ann Hutchinsons book "Labanotation" the chapters related to gestures. There are 3 chapters related to arm, leg and hand gestures. To notate a mudra would be quiet of a task! It could perhaps be close to the form of it but couldn´t capture not the textures and colors of the movement.
In the academic year 2002-2003 at the Rotterdamse Dansacademie, a choreographer sent his notator (Benesh notation) in order to teach a piece to the dancers. Although the notator was not a dancer- she reposed quickly the complex piece.
Choreographer: Angelin Preljocaj
Piece: Noces
Notation: Noémie Perlov, Dany Lévêque
In April 2006, he re-stages the piece.
Amos Hetz works in Berlin and in jerusalem with the Eshkol-Wachman Movement Notation System. The system was developed in the mid-1950's in Israel. It has been used to notate a wide range of human and animal movement.
Something a bit different, but in the line of being able to "read or draw" in movement improvisation is the CD-ROM by William Forsythe. Did you hear about it?
That is what I could answer right away. We can keep in contact.
Kind regards,
Mónica
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